I got an email today from someone having a problem with a page I wrote titled He who comes to God must believe that He is.
This is what he wrote:
it all started out so good but, how do you get “And these three are one, and are each one, God” ? how do you deal with these scriptures: 1.here o israel the lord thy god is one lord.: 2. one lord one faith and one baptism.:3. one god and father of all.:4 and his name shall be called wonderful……….everlasting father.5.god is spirit and they that worship him must do so in spirit and in truth. my point is i do believe that you must first believe that god is but after you need to seek god for the understanding of who is. i know that some say the trinity is mystery but it’s one that we should not even have to try to solve because to understand the oneness of god is to truly learn of gods’ love. he said he looked for a man and could not find one so his own arm has gotten him this salvation. no greater love than this that a man would lay down his life for his friend. we know god is not a man but he took upon himself the form of a servant and humbled himself even to death on the cross. isaiah writes i even i am he and besides me there is no savior. i conclude that trinity makes no sense at all and to believe in one would cause us to question who is the father of jesus the holy ghost that overshadowed mary or the father that said this is my beloved son in whom i’m well pleased.
Here was my response:
Thanks for writing. I read your email with interest. The scriptures you have used below are all valid. I will not dispute with you what they mean. A simple reading explains what each of those references mean. I accept what they say.
In my page that you read I also use scriptures. I will honestly expect you to read them with the same determination you used when pointing out your own scriptures. I have laid out for you the scriptures themselves and then I go further and point out to you what they mean to me. The conclusion I wrote about is the one that I believe is right.
Does this mean that I think you are wrong? No, not according to the scriptures you have used. The question then becomes; “what of the scriptures that Joe quotes?” In the beginning was the Word etc… is John’s way of saying that the Jesus he saw in the flesh is the same person who said… “let there be light” in Genesis.
The question you need to ask yourself is, “do I use all the scriptures to understand what God says about himself?” I know this is a hard question to honestly answer. I have struggled through years of searching to understand “the mystery.” There came a point for me when I had to simply believe what the scriptures revealed… all of them… and accept that your core statement “hear O Israel, the Lord is One” and one of mine “in the beginning… the Word was God” and “became flesh.” Do they seem at odds with each other? Of course they do. Does that mean one or the other is wrong? No, they are both right.
I would like you to know the Jesus that I know. That comes from revelation. Not because I am smart or clever or specially holy, I am not, it comes from God the Father. I needed to stretch “my faith” to accept what the bible declares. Read my page again and then pray.
Like the scriptures say, “God is the rewarder of those that diligently seek him” (which is the next page in the series).
May God bless your continued search for the truth… wherever He may lead you.
I am interested in knowing what you think on the subject. Ahem… play nice (as Patti says).
Joe, you sure picked a controversial subject this time. I just finished reading a 23 page booklet by Nicky Gumbel, titled: Is the Trinity Unbiblical, Unbelievable and Irrelevant ? It takes 22 pages to deal with it. However, two paragraphs from the last page do a pretty good job. I quote:
” For this reason I kneel before the father, from whom His whole family in heaven and on earth derives it’s name. I pray that out of His glorious riches, He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:14-19
When the Holy spirit fills us, we experience the Fatherhood of God, the Love of Christ and the power of the Spirit. Yet the three cannot be separated. He (The Apostle Paul) prays for “His Spirit”, “Christ”, and” all the fullness of God”, to fill them. The three are in one and one in three. God is not meant only to be understood in our minds, but, also experienced in our hearts and lives. To be filled with the Spirit is to experience God as Trinity.
I don’t find the trinity such a difficult thing to understand. There is one God in three persons. That is to say that God has three different personalities and three different positions each with their own area of responsibility and share equal authority. They work together in harmony as “one”. Just like a good sports team can work together as a “one team” , but made up of several individuals. It’s not that hard to imagine. We are made in their image. Maybe that’s why we like sports so much! I think the Leafs need to get more in tune with God, don’t you think?
Leave it to Dougie G to mention the Maple Leafs on the comparison of “one team” and “trinity”.
🙂
I’m not really a hockey fan. I just used that as an example. P. Patti did an illustration not long ago in a sermon on this very subject. She had three people representing Father,Son and Holy Spirit inside a hoola hoop. It was a good illustration and made sense, but I’m having trouble remembering exactly what she said about the illustration. It was a good illustration, but you had to see it. Probably better than the Maple Leaf one.
Pastor Patti are you out there? Could you explain your illustration verbally?
Oh by the way, good post Joe. I hope some of what we say can help this gentleman come to terms with the scriptures he is having trouble with. People do have difficulty understanding the trinity which is why P.Patti did the sermon. He is not alone and I commend him for searching for the truth on this subject. I think that is why we need faith, because there is no way we understand everything God represents. He is too big for our puny mortal minds. Here’s a question that will give you a brain cramp; What was before God and where did he come from? I don’t think anybody but God can answer this. We just have to believe he exists and trust him with our destiny. What’s beyond eternity? Ouch! Ok I have stop now. Brain cramp!
Another controversial question: this time by dougie g. Genisis 1 and John 1 both start with ” In the beginning ” and this start refers to creation. God existed before creation. Obviously, because He created. Revelation 4:8 says: ” Holy,Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who WAS and IS and IS TO COME. I don’t think God had a beginning: I think He always was.
My puny mind can’t fathom that concept of “always was”. My mind says there must be a beginning and an end. But, not with God obviously. I believe God, I just can’t wrap my mind around the concept. That’s where faith comes in. We can’t possibly understand everything.
Here is the opening paragraph of a piece I wrote covering God’s existence:
How does one go about describing a reality that has no matter or energy and where space and time have no meaning. There is simply the awareness of self. “I AM”, he said, “and there is no other”. It is the existence of God out side of all reality modes. The earthly and the spiritual have no meaning for as yet they do not exist. Only God who is spirit. Yet, even the word spirit betrays an existence of some kind that has parameters. What can be enclosed within parameters is not God but of God.
For the rest of the brain stretching (or brain twisting) article: http://christianmuse.com/prophecy/God.shtml
Joe, I followed your link to the christianmuse. I’m impressed: not so much with what you have done here: but, with the gift God has given you and the thoughts He has expressed through you. Now, I can boast that I have a friend who is a God ordained philosopher.
I have a question. Not to be controversial, but, to learn. I have always believed that the unsaved were destined to eternal punishment – not ultimate death. ” Death” being defined in the dictionary as ” end or destruction”. Your last sentence in The Wonder of Existence stated ” The rest is life with the promise of death “. Would you comment, please, on what was meant here ?
Joe, I have the same question. I also read your writings on Christian Muse and am impressed. Maybe there’s a reason why you are not able to work full time. God has other plans for you!
How far off do you think the 70th week is and what do you think we will be doing during that time period?
The rest is life with the promise of death?
There is a lot of thinking that went into that line. As I wrote in the article “for where the Spirit is there is eternal life.” The thing we should all do is see where the Spirit is moving and be there with Him. In Romans 8 we read that those who walk in the Spirit have no condemnation. We walk in the life of the Spirit. We mind the things of the Spirit. Yet if we walk in the flesh we have our minds on flesh matters. We are at those moments apart from God. (not that God parts from us)
In Matthew it talks about the wood, hay and stubble of our lives being destroyed (tested) by fire. All these things we do outside of Christ have no hope of surviving the test. All these things will be burned. It is a type of death. The question that needs to be asked is “are our activities a regular part of life (flesh motivated) that ends in death or are your activities lead by the Spirit where there is eternal life?”
All of us Christians have some of each in our lives. (I hope)
Does this answer your question?
How far off do you think the 70th week is and what do you think we will be doing during that time period?
I do not believe that the time is far off. It always was dependant on the state of Israel. Now I believe that God’s grace can hold off those times but those times will have to come because it is part of God’s plan of salvation for the Jews. Perhaps in my life time. That is my hope.
What will we be doing? Ha! That is a can of worms to be opened with caution. Ooops, they fell out of the can and I can’t get them back in. Ah well, here’s my two cents about the time.
In the beginning of Revelation we have seven letters to seven churches. I believe that they not only represent seven churches at the time John wrote those letters but also foreshadowed seven ages that the church would go through. I read in Rev 3 about the church in Philidelphia. I believe that they are the people that will get raptured before the coming of the anti-christ. If we are caught up during this time we will not have to go through the tribulation that will come upon the whole world. But, that is the sixth church. The seventh church, in Laodicea, the luke warm people, missed the rapture. They will be around for part of the Tribulation. Before the Seventh seal the church age comes to a close. The chosen of Israel receive their mark as the church enters heaven in a triumphant march. The last members of the luke warm church, who suffer persecution and death for the sake of Jesus will enter heaven. This is not the rapture.
So? If we miss the rapture before the Tribulation begins we will suffer through the rise of the anti-chist. Now, will I stake my reputation on this understanding? Not a chance! It is simply what I have understood so far. And this is a very, very brief explanation.
Not really, unless I’m misinterpreting your thought. The last two sentences state: ” For where His Spirit is, there is eternal life. The rest is life with the promise of death.” I take this to mean that we will experience eternal life with Him if His spirit is within us. With that I agree. But, if His spirit is not within us, we will be banished from His presence. So, is ” The rest is life with the promise of death ” eternal life of darkness – OR- death – the end – obliteration ?
Thanks Joe. Yes, that answered the question from your perspective. You wrote the comment, so you must have known what you meant by it. I can see how it could have been taken another way and was open to interpretation. It’s going to be interesting. I don’t think we are far off at all. We are going to see some biblically significant events take place in the next four years. I believe your hope of being around for the rapture is not only a very real possibility, I believe it is a probability. Look to 2012 as a year for significant change.
Hi Don, yes, you are not quite interpreting what I have written. You have read the last paragraph as if it was a decision between being saved or lost. I could see where you might get that idea from the second line in the last paragraph which reads “For God without sees the saved and the lost as they will be for he knows them from the start.” The last line is not about the lost person.
The key to understanding the last line is the third sentence “Find his spirit moving and you will live to the moment where you should be. The key word is moment. Those moments you walk with God’s Spirit, those times and works, follow you into eternity. All those moments you are not walking in God (the rest is life with the promise of death) will not follow you into eternity but are the stubble of your life that is burned, consumed, destroyed and are a type of death.
Think of it as the responsibility of God’s people to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. To see where He is leading and then to follow. To do the works He has called you to do. These lead to rewards in heaven. All activities by the born again Christian that are carnal, of the flesh, are ashes left at the gates of heaven.
Now… about the unsaved… whether death is a person being eternally tormented in the lake of fire OR the total destruction of the person in those fires causing obliteration? My understanding to date is that neither is the quite the case.
I know that there are cries from those who are thrown into the lake of fire. These cries will be for the rest if eternity. Yet Matthew talks about the body and soul being destroyed in those same fires…
Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yet Mark 9:44 adds…
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
So as I understand it both are correct. After the judgement those who are thrown into the lake of fire have their bodies and souls destroyed – obliterated. Their spirit (worm) however continues and it is the cries of those spirits that come from the lake of fire.
Is that helpful?
Good explanation Joe. Thanks. A soul being tormented for eternity has always bothered me. Whatever that state turns out to be, I want no part of it.
Me either.
And this string comes quietly to a close…. zzzzzzzz